Buying a home as a physician looks very different than it does for most buyers, especially in today’s uncertain housing and lending market.
In this episode, Daniel Wrenne sits down with Doug Crouse, a mortgage specialist at BMO, to discuss the current state of physician mortgages, how the housing market has evolved post-COVID, and what doctors should know when considering a home purchase.
Listen in to hear Doug’s perspective on declining markets in Florida and Idaho, why fewer residents are buying homes now compared to pre-COVID, and how banks are loosening lending limits as prices continue to climb.
You’ll get a practical perspective on PMI-free lending, the unique underwriting advantages of physician loans, and Doug’s predictions for mortgage rates over the next few years.
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Links
- Doug Crouse BMO
- Hippocratic House – Download the free eBook!
- Connect with Doug Crouse
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Full Episode Transcript:
Doug Crouse: People go in and say, I’m never moving. I found my perfect home, and I did that three homes ago and moved three more times after that. So people just don’t stay—parents and grandparents used to buy a house and they die there. Just doesn’t happen anymore.
And then see how it’s going.
Welcome to Finance for Physicians, the show where we help physicians like you use money as a tool to live a great life. I’m your host, Daniel Wrenne, and I’ve spent the last decade advising physicians on their personal finances with the mission to help them understand that taking control of their finances now means creating a future where they can practice medicine where, when, and how long they want to.
Daniel Wrenne: Hey, everyone. I’m joined here today with Doug Crouse, and I wanted to give a quick intro to Doug. Doug, we were just catching up before we hit record. And Doug has been in the physician mortgage industry for many years now. We were just talking about how long our careers are gonna continue.
But how many years has it been? Is it 25 to 30?
Doug Crouse: 27.
Daniel Wrenne: 27 years in the business of doing physician loans. And so you’re with BMO. Is that correct?
Doug Crouse: Yep.
Daniel Wrenne: Okay. So yeah, specialized in working with physicians and dentists and helping them to get mortgages. And so he has that expertise. A lot of lenders do those on the side, but Doug really has focused on that.
And I know they work in a lot of states. Do y’all work in all states or…?
Doug Crouse: No, we cut down about a year and a half ago to the 22 states we have footprint in, but that’s about to change. We’re gonna be rolling back up to all 50 here within about a month, which is nice.
Daniel Wrenne: Okay, so working in a bunch of states.
So anyway, we’re gonna be talking high level, what is a physician mortgage? Talk a little bit about the state of the housing and lending market. It’s been a little all over the place. It’s not all over the place. It’s just a weird market, I guess I would say. So we’ll talk a little bit about that, and then we can wrap up with some tips for those of you listening who are thinking about buying some things to think about.
Anyway, if we could maybe get started. Maybe we’ll talk about the state of the housing market. I think I said weird. That’s how I would describe it. Like the housing market, the lending market has been a little bit unique. But I’m curious more from your perspective, Doug, like how would you describe the housing market overall and the lending market, and in your work with physicians?
Doug Crouse: For the housing market, we definitely got to a point where we started seeing a few markets as declining market, and Florida is one of ’em.
Daniel Wrenne: Like prices declining?
Doug Crouse: Yeah, actually saw some price decline—pretty significant price decline. I have a place in Florida, in Fort Myers and Lee County specifically.
That was one of the worst ones. In Cape Coral, the area we were just talking about, but it’s rebounding at this point. There was a couple small markets in Idaho, even in Arizona, I would say a little bit, but seeing the bottom of it now. I was seeing a few appraisals here and there where they labeled as declining market, or they actually appraised for less than they did and sold for less than they did a year earlier.
But starting to see that level out as far as the lending side. And banks had definitely taken a step back in 2025. It just felt like they were a lot. Tightening their belts, and I’m starting to see that loosen back up.
Just for instance, I’m seeing probably here in the next couple weeks, we’re gonna be rolling out zero down to 2 million. That is gonna be limited to not first-time buyers. Like the first-time buyers with these capped at a million and a half. But those are unheard of numbers. Two years ago, trying to get zero down to 2 million. That just didn’t exist.
So I think the market is coming back to the point where Wall Street’s playing a part of it, but the banks themselves have just gotten more appetite again.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. I haven’t heard of prices going down, but that’s not that surprising. With the lack of volume and there’s just been not a lot of, I don’t know, in general movement, but the physician market is a little different in some ways because. You got—physicians in training will always be buying houses or going into practice and there’s the moves across the country that happen pretty inevitably.
I think a lot of physicians are in—even if it’s not like the perfect market to buy or sell, a lot of times they’re placed in a position where they have to buy or need to buy. Physician mortgages are a pretty common solution for that.
That’s kind of part of the whole appeal with ’em is that there’s this special product that exists for a physician, but we’ve already started throwing around the term, but maybe you could give us a high level of what’s so special about a physician loan? What makes it different?
Doug Crouse: So physician loans, right out the gate, a true physician loan doesn’t have PMI. That’s a big difference from a standard conventional type, Fannie or Freddie or FHA, but also they allow fires to close prior to starting their job. So up to 90 days before your job starts is what the norm is. There’s a handful of lenders that’ll do four months, and some of them only 60 days, but that’s a plus, because a lot of times, as you said, they’re finishing up training, they’re going to a whole new part of the country, and they really don’t have time to go buy a house.
After they’ve started their job, they’re hitting the ground running, so they need to get settled. Maybe after MATs season, whether they’re just going into residency or starting their first attending job.
Need to get settled, get the kids in school and stuff before the job starts. So those are two big perks to it, but surprisingly, and this is something unique to us, I would say not all banks take this approach, but our rates on doctor loans are actually below market. And it might stand a reason to think, “Hey, they’re giving me a no-money-down loan.”
That’s, of course, another perk of the doctor loan is most average consumer don’t get to borrow seven figures and put no money down, but doctors the default rate is zero. So we really liked the loans, but back to the fact that they get to buy with no money down and really no work history is the big difference.
And then the lack of PMI, of course.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. And PMI can be expensive. It is expensive. It’s like just a pure added cost on a mortgage. And it’s typically for mortgages that don’t have 20% equity, right?
Doug Crouse: Yeah. And really, all it is it’s an insurance policy that a third party’s taken on the risk.
So think of it in this term, if you have a million-dollar house and put $200,000 down, that’s how much equity the bank has. If you default on the loan, if it sells below $800,000, we start to lose money. Where PMI sometimes is 30% or 35% coverage. So take that same loan. If it was a million dollars and somebody put $50,000 down, somebody else is agreeing to take on the next $300,000 of the loss, meaning the bank’s only on the hook for $650.
But we just look at doctors and say, “Hey, these guys always pay, there’s no default. So there’s no need to make them pay PMI,” because as you said, it is expensive. They’re only paying it for the lender’s benefit. It’s not for you, it’s just for somebody to give you the loan. And we’ve decided to make that a tolerable risk when dealing with doctors because they don’t default.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. And the part about the underwriting part is that’s a big deal. I think if you’re getting, especially if you’re transitioning into practice, like if you’re trying to get a conventional standard loan at a normal bank, they’re gonna be like, “We want two paychecks, pay stubs,” proving your income in practice or whatever, and you’re like, “By then, I’ll have already moved and be working there.”
And I need to buy the house before I move there. I don’t know if you understand how this physician thing goes, but I gotta buy the house before I move there, and then I start earning the money. So that’s a big, huge perk with the physician loan is they’re gonna look at your, like what do you look at typically, like just the employment contract?
Doug Crouse: That, or even an offer letter. If it’s a signed offer letter with start date salary, both of ’em signed it—the borrower and the employer—that’s good enough.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Yep. And zero down is great. What’s the range? What are what is the range of interest rates now for a 30-year like that you’re seeing?
Doug Crouse: So there’s risk been against that change. The rates like a hundred percent rate is obviously higher than a 10% down rate.
Daniel Wrenne: Right.
Doug Crouse: With us specifically, once you get to 10% down, the rate doesn’t really get any better. We feel like we’ve taken out all of our risk once you’re putting 10% down, for comparison, a 30-year fixed with no money down might be 6.625, or actually six and a half today versus 10% down.
We’re in the 5.875 range now.
Daniel Wrenne: For 30 year?
Doug Crouse: Yeah, that’s 36. Then a 7/6 ARM, no money down, like 5.875 and then a 10% down. We’re all the way down to five and an eight, like 5.125.
Daniel Wrenne: Okay. That’s good. They’ve gone down a fair amount since I guess the peak.
Doug Crouse: Yeah, it’s actually quite come down quite a bit here over the last few months.
And, that ARM is not for everybody, but it’s the right answer for some people. And for me, when I’m talking to people, I just want ’em to know all their choices, but the ARM is, “Hey, if you’re not gonna be there longer than that, why pay a fixed rate? You’re only gonna be there seven years or less.”
And despite what most people think, having been doing this for 27 years, it’s probably 80% of people don’t stay in a loan longer than seven years, whether it be refinance, ’cause rates have gone down, or I’m moving to my next home, and I’m a perfect example. I’m in my late 50s and I’m on my fourth forever home.
So people go in and say, “I’m never moving. I found my perfect home, and I did that three homes ago and moved three more times after that.” So people just don’t stay—parents and grandparents used to buy a house and they die there. Just doesn’t happen anymore.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Yeah. Something we hear a lot from physicians is like now I’m thinking about buying. Not sure. Maybe rent. I’m not sure.
And they’re wondering like, is this a good time to buy? What are your thoughts on that question? Like in the environment we’re in now, especially if we’re looking at somebody or thinking about somebody earlier in their career.
Doug Crouse: To me, there’s always gonna be the outlier market where renting actually makes sense.
But as a rule of thumb, housing as a more global picture goes up in value, so the longer you wait, the problem is maybe with a doctor income, but most people can’t save money fast enough to buy a house. And if you look at a million-dollar house two years ago and then say, “Hey, I’m gonna wait and save $200,000 for a down payment,” two years later, three years later, however long that took, even with a big.
Attending salary. Now that million dollar house costs 1.2 million. You do have a $200,000 payment, you’re still borrowing a million dollars.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah.
Doug Crouse: So it just doesn’t make sense. It’s usually buy as soon as you can, in my opinion, even if it means taking a hundred percent. Even if that is take a higher rate because you can always get a better rate later by refinancing that the market improves.
Or if your equity improves, where you know you bought a house for a million, now it’s worth $1,000,001, now you’ve got equity. When you go back to refinance it, you’re closer to a 90% loan, which gets you better rates.
Daniel Wrenne: Yep. So if I’m a physician, I’m just starting to think about home ownership.
What would you say are a couple things that you wish people in that kind of phase understood more before they started talking to lenders. Some advice you might have to them that you’ve seen people miss on as you’ve started to work with them.
Doug Crouse: The biggest one, and this one is just it’s so eye-opening to people when I explain how this works is debt utilization. Credit cards murder people’s credit scores, and people go chase these zero down interest credit cards and start playing the save 50 bucks, a hundred bucks here and there.
Like consolidate balances and reality. I’ve got a book, by the way, the Hippocratic House. It’s hippocratichouse.com. It’s free if anybody wants it, but there’s a chapter in it about credit. And whenever you utilize credit cards and owe more than 30%, it starts to hit your score, and over 50% hits it a lot.
And over 70% is just the death of your score. And the problem with that is, is you got somebody that’s a 780 profile that has a couple credit cards that have zero interest rate on ’em, consolidated all their debt to those, all of a sudden they get their credit pulled right before they’re ready to look at houses and think, oh my God, how do I have a 690 credit score?
It’s well, you have a $10,000 limit on your credit card, and you owe $9,000 on it, that’s just a computer that’s grading that. It’s a not an actual human to say, “Hey, I can see you’ve paid all your bills, never paid anybody late. It’s a computer model that looks at it and says, this guy’s given credit and he uses all of it.”
So he is probably somebody that’s gonna default at some point. Credit card utilization is always my biggest topic to break the bad news to people whenever they don’t have the score they think they’re gonna have. And the other thing would be don’t wait until you’re ready to go out and find a house on a Friday night to get pre-approved.
Do it a month or maybe even two months before you think. Then you’ve got time. If you could address something like those credit scores versus last minute. Now you’re just stuck with that 700 or 720 score makes a big difference. A 700 score to us versus a 740 score might be a half percent difference in rate.
That’s gonna be hundreds of dollars on a million-dollar loan versus that credit card, 0% interest, saved you pennies on the dollar. So don’t step over dollars to pick up pennies in the case of credit cards.
AD BREAK
Daniel Wrenne: Let’s take a quick break to talk about our firm, Wrenne Financial Planning.
The goal of our podcast is to empower you to make better financial decisions, but sometimes the best financial decision you can make is to work with someone who understands your financial goals and has the expertise to keep you on track to reach them. That’s where Wrenne Financial Planning comes in. We are a full-service financial planning firm that works with over 400 physicians and their families across the country.
We charge a transparent monthly flat fee for our services and offer virtual meetings you can take from anywhere. Best of all, you’ll get to work with a team that specializes in working with physician families. So whether you’re starting out and wondering how you’ll balance your student loan payments and saving for a home, or you are established physician trying to figure out how to pay for your kids’ college and how much you need to save to reach financial freedom, we can help.
I’ll put a link in the show notes to schedule a no-obligation meeting with one of our certified financial planners. Wrenne Financial Planning, LLC is a registered investment advisor. For more information about our firm, please visit wrennefinancial.com. That’s W-R-E-N-N-E financial.com.
AD BREAK END
Daniel Wrenne: I’ve seen that temptation. I felt that temptation, the credit card offers, and you can check your credit anytime. And speaking of credit cards, a lot of these credit card companies now offer a pre-credit profile. I don’t know how accurate it is, but I’m sure it’s relatively accurate, where you can go in and check your credit.
And I know if I was even just thinking about buying a house, I’d be looking at my credit score to see where I was at to make sure there wasn’t any red flags even before.
Doug Crouse: Yeah. And those are consumer credit, but it absolutely is that. I mean, it’s not a dollar-for-dollar trade-off. But I would say the consumer credit on average probably reports 10 to 20 points higher than a mortgage credit report will.
But it’s still a very good indication. So Credit Karma, CreditWise, any of these credit card apps, they’re definitely something to monitor.
They’re real-time. So the one difference I would say there is if you’ve got a Citi card, for instance, and you pay down your Citi card, and that’s where you’re getting your score, it knows you paid your balance down because you’re paying down their credit card versus the credit bureaus on the mortgage side.
It might take a month for that to catch up because they only report balances once a month. So in that case, I would say a consumer credit score total range actually is about 50 points higher than a mortgage range too. And I’m not saying the scores are that different. I’m just saying you can’t get a 900 score on a mortgage report.
You can potentially on a consumer app, so.
Daniel Wrenne: Yep.
Doug Crouse: I have people tell me, “Oh no, I have 860 credit.” It’s like, well, 850 is the top, so you don’t, but I would say the average person that I talk to, their score tends to be about 10 to 15 points lower than what those consumer apps are showing.
Daniel Wrenne: And so when you get pre-approved, you’re gonna get the—that’s when you get the formal commercial.
Doug Crouse: Yeah. You’re gonna get a mortgage report then. And the mortgage report does, it grades things a little differently too because it cares about some things that the consumer doesn’t. Consumer, think of it in a way that they want to see you in debt. The more credit card debt you have, the happier they are ’cause that’s how they make money.
Where a mortgage report is probably looking at that as are they abusing the amount of credit they’re given? As a grade to say, are they gonna pay us back?
Daniel Wrenne: Right. Can you explain the debt-to-income calculation or ratio and how that plays into it?
Doug Crouse: So every bank, usually, these doctor loans are—portfolio loans, meaning every bank has their own set of rules.
So the norm probably is 43% to 45%. There’s a handful that go to 50%. There’s also a few that go as low as 38%. But by that, we mean just to really simplify the math, if you made $10,000 a month, $120,000 a year, taking your gross income, and it’s always gross, that’s 45% of that number can be all of your debt.
Some banks care about the front ratio, which is the mortgage versus the back ratio is the mortgage plus all the consumer debt, student loans, everything combined. We only care about the backend ratio, so our number’s 45%, so in the case of somebody that $10,000 a month income, we would first haircut that and say $5,500 of that’s gonna go towards utilities, taxes, food, insurance, stuff like that.
The other 45% is what we think you can afford to spend, but before we say you could have a $4,500 mortgage payment, in that case, we then need to subtract out student loans and credit card debt and car payments, and if you had it, child support alimony. But that number, obviously, if we’re gonna talk about attending salaries, maybe it’s $30,000 and we’re just gonna triple those numbers and $30,000 a month, and then you’re talking $13,500.
Subtract out car payments, credit card payments, student loan payments, and whatever’s left is what we’re willing to approve. Now when I say that, there’s a difference because California is a lot different than Missourim, as an example. California, you’re probably gonna have a lot more people closer to the max debt ratio for two reasons.
One, doctors make less money on the West coast than they do in the Midwest, and, two, housing’s a lot more expensive and California it is Kansas City. So in those cases, it isn’t everybody should be at 45% or less because some people should be way less. Because I will say this, that a lot of people in my role won’t take this approach.
But just because I say you can doesn’t mean you should. So if I tell you can afford a $2 million house, doesn’t mean you should go buy a $2 million house. If you’re gonna be happy with a million-dollar house, then don’t be house poor. And that’s again, another chapter. And my wife’s the doctor as well, the Hippocratic House, we just hate to see people live paycheck to paycheck.
And it just becomes the American way, and it’s sad when I see doctors put in that circumstance just because they don’t have to be.
Again, you might be more inclined to have to do something like that to live in the Bay Area or San Diego or something, but if you’re not in a super high cost area, it doesn’t pay the max compensation, then I’d much prefer to see somebody choose to be in the sub 40% just because it leaves you money for vacations, it leaves you money to say, “I hate my job. I’m gonna go find a different one. I don’t have to make as much as I was making before to pay my bills.”
Again, it’s just not a circumstance just because somebody says you can afford this, you go out and spend every penny they let you.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, you gotta be careful with the pushing the envelope on that. A lot of lenders will say, “Here’s what you can afford.” And they’re using the debt-to-income ratio max, like you were saying earlier, which is a little bit misleading.
I guess technically that’s like the limit that the bank thinks you can afford, but it’s also—you gotta think of it like they’re calculating that based off this assumption that the remainder is going towards basic necessities maintaining the house, not much else really. And so that’s what house poor is like basically. House poor is—my definition of house poor is like when you’re at the top ceiling of what you can afford.
And that’s basically eating up a big chunk of your check, and all you have left over is just to live at a baseline lifestyle. And if you don’t want to be house poor, you gotta stay away from that cap.
Doug Crouse: And the more people make, the more they spend. But I will say a 45 debt ratio is a lot more comfortable for somebody making $50,000 a month than it is somebody making $10,000 a month.
Daniel Wrenne: Yes. That’s a caveat.
Doug Crouse: Because groceries cost the same, they’re not gonna go out and may spend five times as much for the same food. And their car insurance, more or less cost the same. So you have a lot more discretionary income left outta that 55% the higher your income is.
Daniel Wrenne: Although the taxes tend to eat you up higher.
Doug Crouse: Yeah. That is true as well.
Daniel Wrenne: Even with the taxes, like generally speaking, like the higher your income, you should have more discretionary. But you still gotta watch out. I would think of it like—
Doug Crouse: I would say more comfort doing it, but there’s also less reason to do it when you’re making $50,000 a month, there’s no reason to be at a 45 debt ratio.
Daniel Wrenne: That’d be a lot of house.
Doug Crouse: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s something else, and this is probably, we’re starting to see things, following the market costs have just gone up. Even though I said there’s been a few markets where prices went down. For the most part, 90% costs have gone up enough. You’re starting to see limits go up like mine.
I’ve been for the last four years, a cap of 2 million. We’re probably gonna move up to two and a half million soon, just because a house in the Bay Area or LA that cost 2 million in 2020, probably cost two and a half million now.
Doug Crouse: So that kept up with the times there.
Daniel Wrenne: Something else I was thinking of, just if we compare like pre-COVID to now, like there’s been a big increase in general and housing prices since say 2018. And so I think back to pre-COVID, it seemed like to me a lot more like residents and fellows were buying houses, and I’m curious about from your perspective, has that changed over?
Have you seen less residents and fellows buying houses? Has that gone down as a result of—because housing prices have gone up way faster than the typical resident fellow salary, plus on top of that, the interest rates have gone up.
Doug Crouse: And that definitely affects how much house you can afford. And it gets to the point where is it even worth it? There are certain circumstances where only gonna be in the house for three years, then you’re moving again.
It doesn’t make sense to buy. And some of the residents, that’s the case because one, it’s just, the housing is just too expensive for where they’re doing residency. But no, to answer your first question, I definitely think in the last couple years, I’m not, I’m very, very busy, but I’m not as busy during MATs season with fellows and residents, as I used to be.
It’s more attendings and less residents now, and I think that’s just a, to your point, a lot of the residents are choosing not to buy now either because they can’t or just choosing not to because even though they can, they can’t buy near the house. They used to be able to, and rates were in the threes.
Daniel Wrenne: At the end of the day, on a $70,000 a year salary, it’s extremely difficult in most places in the country to buy a house.
Doug Crouse: Yeah. You get through the Midwest, you could still do that comfortably, but yeah. That won’t buy anything. On the West Coast, you can’t, unless you’ve got a co-borrower, significant other or whatever that’s more than doubling that income.
You can’t buy a starter home in California.
Daniel Wrenne: Yep. As we start to wrap up, I thought it’d be fun to talk a little bit about the future and maybe make a few predictions. We’re not gonna hold you to any of these. The experts seem to, I don’t know. From my perspective, it seems like the experts, the real estate experts, have been predicting interest rates to go down, for example, for a decent amount of time.
I guess they have started to come down a little bit like we were talking about earlier, but I think that it’s happened a little slower than most people would expect. But I’m curious about the next, let’s just say like the next two to three, one to three years something like that timeframe. What are your thoughts on like how things continue to progress with just the housing market and mortgage rates and all that sort of thing in general?
Doug Crouse: Yeah, based on the current political environment, it certainly seems like they’re pushing for lower rates. My best guess is over the next year, year and a half, that we’re gonna see half to 1% cheaper rates than where we’re at now. So I think we’ll see 30-year fixed back in that, right at 5% range and ARM rates back in the really low four range.
So time will tell, but that’s my best guess. But my other prediction is I think this was an anomaly year. The chiefs will definitely make the playoffs this next year.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Yeah. You never know.
Doug Crouse: Kansas City, by the way.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah.
Doug Crouse: But I think the problem is that, and you saw this during COVID, is the affordability of housing does get better with rates coming down, but realtors definitely take advantage of rates, making houses too affordable compared to rent. So as rates come down, prices go up. They work inverse to one another. So it is still more affordable to have a 3% rate and a house that’s 25% more expensive, but at the same time, eventually, houses just get to the point where they price people out of the market, and you end up having to be a doctor to even buy a house in certain markets.
Or some doctors can’t even afford to buy a house in certain markets. And it’s just, I don’t know, there’s gotta be a fine line that you have to look at to say rates going as low as they did during COVID. I think they had to do that to not put us in a complete tailspin of an economy. But long-term, it didn’t do us any favors because prices skyrocketed.
And then you got all these people sitting in their houses now, like, why would I wanna move the house cost 50% more and I’d have to pay double the rate, like now to go from a $600,000 to a $900,000 house. I’m not getting that much more house, and it costs double or more. So it didn’t do the market any favors of liquidity of there’s no houses for sale.
There’s nowhere near enough houses out there for the number of buyers that need housing.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, yes. I’ve heard a lot of people say that whole interest rate staying low during COVID ultimately translated to, or was a big part of the massive price increases. And basic economics would tell you that like when you, the lower interest rates go, the more prices go up.
And that’s now the one thing, maybe they start building a lot more houses, like the supply of houses increases could help. But that doesn’t seem to be changing much like in terms of the supply out there.
Doug Crouse: They’re not keeping up for sure. Especially single family, there’s not enough housing, so it’s still a shortage and certain pockets of the country are worse than others, but there’s just not enough desirable housing to keep up with the demand.
Daniel Wrenne: Yep. Well, Doug, I appreciate you sitting down with us. And so I wanted to make sure and also mention if people wanna find you, what’s the best way for them to get ahold of you, or for questions and that sort of thing?
Doug Crouse: Dougcrouse.com makes it really easy. That’ll give you all my contact info.
That is a page where you could apply. But more importantly, that’s got all my contact info, email, phone number, and it’s C-R-O-U-S-E, so dougcrouse.com. And that book I mentioned, hippocratichouse.com. That’s a free book. It’s like a couple hundred page book. It’s not a little flyer. I’d love to give it away if anybody wants it.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. It’s good information too. Obviously, you guys can tell Doug’s got the experience and expertise, so that’s a good read, and it doesn’t cost a lot.
Doug Crouse: It’s free.
Daniel Wrenne: All right, Doug. I appreciate it, buddy.
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