Are small financial mistakes quietly making it harder for you to practice medicine on your own terms?
Physicians often assume that a strong income will naturally lead to financial security, but that’s rarely how it works.
In reality, the biggest financial setbacks usually come from avoidable habits and decisions that seem harmless in the moment.
In this episode, Daniel Wrenne is joined by Hugh Baker to address some of the most common ways doctors unintentionally derail their finances, including the patterns they see most often in physician households.
Listen in to learn how physicians can avoid some of the most common financial traps, why high income alone doesn’t guarantee financial freedom, and how a few overlooked habits can quietly keep you stuck longer than necessary.
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Links
- Vitals Check: Your Money Game Plan for Post-Residency Life
- Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman
- Connect with Hugh Baker
- Connect with me on my LinkedIn
- Contact Finance for Physicians
- Finance for Physicians
- To schedule a call with one of our awesome planners, book HERE.
Full Episode Transcript:
Hugh Baker: Know the difference between being a trader and an investor. Sorry, “Am I buying this because I think it’s gonna go up in the next five days, or am I buying this because I think it’s gonna help me not have to work 25 years from now?” And just know the difference. It’s okay to be one or the other as long as you have the time to pay attention to be a trader. But just know that that’s another key difference.
Welcome to Finance for Physicians, the show where we help physicians like you use money as a tool to live a great life. I’m your host, Daniel Wrenne, and I’ve spent the last decade advising physicians on their personal finances with the mission to help them understand that taking control of their finances now means creating a future where they can practice medicine where, when, and how long they want to.
Daniel Wrenne: Hugh. How’s it going, man?
Hugh Baker: Great, Daniel. Just got back from nice vacation in the Smoky Mountains last night. Had a great time. Feeling good. What’s new and exciting with you?
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, well, with all the bears, right? You were hanging out with all the bears in the Smoky?
Hugh Baker: Yeah. The only bears I saw were on pictures or t-shirts, actually, but we still had a great time.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, I think I’m ready for a vacation. I have not taken any recent vacations, but the kids’ spring break’s coming up soon, so we will be, I think we’re going to Florida to see grandparents, so should be fun.
Hugh Baker: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: Little getaway.
Hugh Baker: Yeah. Much needed. I’m sure.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. It’s been a cold winter, so we’re ready. So we’re gonna be talking about financial mistakes, and in particular, how to mess up your finances, really. Which, though you might be thinking, “Why are we talking about how to mess up your finances?” We need to talk about how to optimize your finances, which we normally talk about, but really learning about what the mistakes are and the underlying reasons behind those, which we’re really gonna dig into.
If you can understand those, it will put you ahead of the curve. And I think that’s half the battle is understanding what not to do so that you can avoid those things. So anyway, we’re gonna go through the, I don’t know if is this priority order, we’re gonna go through some of the, we’ll say like top issues that we see causing a lot of problems with people’s finances.
Some of the things to look out for and just talk through each of those and hopefully you guys can gain a little value from at least some of these. Hugh, you want to kick us off with issue number one?
Hugh Baker: I think let’s first establish what we mean by messing up your finances, so we can have a lot of fun and go into talking about how you go bankrupt, or even worse, homeless.
But I think for purposes of this. Messing up your finances, it’s gonna be more like feeling like stuck in your job or there’s something you feel strongly about that you wanna do and you just financially can’t do it, at least without a major lifestyle change. Something like that. But the first one. I’m gonna keep a high-level theme and then we’ll give you some examples, and I’ll even throw in a medical analogy for some of these.
But the first one. I would liken it to starting a new complex medicine without ever doing your labs or checking your vitals. And in this case, the complex medicine would be making a big purchase, like buying a home, where it could be renovating a home, or even reducing your FTE at work. Something that’s gonna be a major change for your financial situation.
And the vitals are the labs in this situation. Really, I think about it in two parts. Number one would be reviewing your balance sheet. So that’s what you own. Think your cash, your investments. And then on the other side, what you owe. So any student loans that you have or personal debts that you have. And this gives you a good current snapshot of where you stand.
And that’s really gonna be based on what you’ve already done. And the other part of that vitals or labs would be reviewing your cash flow. And I would do this in a data-driven way. And think about this as how much you have coming in, where’s that money going? How much is going out? Where is that money going?
And this gives you a snapshot of where you’re headed and what you can handle going forward. Because a lot of these complex decisions, they’re not just a one-time outlay. There’s gonna be some type of ongoing effect to your finances.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. And those are not tremendously complex vitals to check the examples you just gave.
So for example, with cash flow, we’re not talking about monitoring your every penny for the rest of your life. We’re talking about understanding in total how much you’re making, in total how much you’re spending, saving, giving, and paying in taxes. Just making sure you’re aware of what those totals are.
Sometimes people get confused about budgeting versus cash flow, but what we’re really talking about with cash flow is just understanding the flow of where your money’s going, at minimum, in the broad categories. So it might just be that you know what your total spending is versus what your total savings is, and that way you have an idea of what your free cash flow might be, or if you know your income, you can see what it’s gonna be in the future and how it affects those things.
So the example hug gave with the changing your full-time equivalent, you can see how that affects your cash flow and how it’s like income drops, free cash flow drops, or spending’s gotta drop, or something’s gotta give. So you, so essentially we’re trying to balance the budget, make sure that you’re aware of everything.
You gotta have an understanding of how it affects and the balance sheet too. It’s like assets, liabilities. You gotta understand what, what all that looks like. Ideally, before you make the complex decision, ’cause inevitably those big decisions will affect your vitals, and you can project what it’s gonna do and like you said, make a more data-driven decision.
But it doesn’t take a lot of time to track those things either.
Hugh Baker: That’s right.
Daniel Wrenne: It’s kind of a routine thing. You don’t have to—I mean, we do it for clients, like we’re checking vitals for clients regularly, but you can do it yourself as well.
Hugh Baker: That’s right. There’s a great course out there called Vitals Check. You might wanna check out if you don’t know where to start, but I’ll give you a little bit of insight. So the people we’re working with, you could take your last paycheck of the year or your W2. You could look at all of your investment accounts or cash accounts and look at what was deposited to those accounts.
Look at any change in your bank accounts also maybe over the year. And aside from the taxes you paid, everything left would be what you spent for the year, and that gives you a good idea of how much free cash flow you have. So if you saved $50,000 last year and you’re thinking about reducing your work capacity and you’re going to have a $50,000 pay cut, you’re probably going to be running at break, even paycheck to paycheck.
Not that’s a bad thing necessarily. I don’t know your situation that might be planned for temporary or maybe you already have the balance sheet built up where that’s not going to be a problem. But at least you go into these decisions, eyes wide open and knowing what to expect, and you don’t have big surprises, and you need to make tough choices that you weren’t prepared to make.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, ’cause that change, like we said, it will affect the vitals, and you can predict these negative consequences if you take the time to check, and monitor these things. And then you can model how the decision is gonna affect the vitals. Are there any other examples come to mind that tie into this?
Hugh Baker: The home purchase is the one that we… Those are the ones that we run into most often because most of the people we work with are on the earlier side of their career. Growing families may be moving for homes that accommodate their family size or they’re graduating from training, making those big decisions.
So establishing that baseline of those vitals is really important.
Daniel Wrenne: And a home decision is a good example because it, and a lot of these do this, but it affects assets or what you own. It affects liabilities typically, and it also affects cash flow. So a lot of these big decisions, they’re affecting all those things and you gotta, at minimum, understand how that’s gonna do that.
You wanna move on to number two?
Hugh Baker: Let’s move on.
Daniel Wrenne: All right.
Hugh Baker: Number two, if I wanted to mess up my finances, I would be, or my health, in this case, I would be inconsistent with my medicines, and in this case, medicine I mean investments. So I would just buy stocks based on a podcast or an article I read. Guilty as charged before.
I’ve done that, and then maybe you don’t pay much attention to that afterwards, and so you’re not keeping up with it. Really, it was just a decision based on a whim. Maybe you’re just collecting investments along the way without really building a thoughtful collection of investments, giving the sum of the parts.
Daniel Wrenne: And real estate. I see this with real estate a lot of times. Shiny objects comes to mind. There’s a lot of shiny objects with investments, and it’s tempting to jump on the thing. And a lot of times you do the analysis one time on the front end usually. And then six months later you can’t remember exactly why you bought it or how it’s doing.
And the easy spot to get into.
Hugh Baker: That’s right. I think the most important thing about that is that you have an investment philosophy and really it’s one that you can stick to given the time and attention that you’re able to give it. So I know that’s why I think personally, index funds for the types of people that we work with, work really well because you don’t have the time to follow along with, “Hey, what’s going on in Iran right now? How is that affecting oil stocks and the economy as a whole?”
Our work is adjacent to that and we still don’t have the time to keep up with those sorts of things, nor do we have the algorithm, active traders to follow those sorts of things. Really, I think it just boils down to something you can stick with.
And for a lot of people, that’s just own the market in a whole, in a way that you believe in you can stick to, even if it’s not going well at the time. Yeah, I think that makes sense for most people. Just being consistent and putting the money in the market.
Daniel Wrenne: It’s like especially important, well, on the front end when you choose, make the initial choice and set the plan.
But the other point where it’s super important is when it gets really volatile and emotional. So for investments, it’s like in 2008 was the last really, really big, huge downturn in the market and people. It was like record numbers of people were being inconsistent with their finances because it was a disaster zone.
And when it’s a mess with your investments, your first natural reaction is to fix it. And so that requires changing it or doing it differently. That’s what the temptation is. But what we’re saying is consistency is key, especially in those times.
Hugh Baker: Especially if you’re an investor. Know the difference between being a trader and an investor.
So, “Am I buying this because I think it’s gonna go up in the next five days, or am I buying this because I think it’s gonna help me not have to work 25 years from now?” And just know the difference. It’s okay to be one or the other as long as you have the time to pay attention to be a trader. But just know that that’s another key difference.
Daniel Wrenne: And remind yourself of it. If you’re an investor and you’re in it for the long haul, its purpose is for a long-term goal. It’s sometimes really helpful to remind yourself, this is money for 20 years from now. So like why am I getting so worried about today’s market change? Like it doesn’t exactly matter for my 20 year from now, though.
Hugh Baker: That’s right. Maybe a good indicator there is if it’s down, do I feel like I wanna buy more, or do I feel like I wanna sell on? Maybe that gives you your answer on whether that’s something you should stick with as an investment.
Daniel Wrenne: Yep. Any other examples for inconsistent?
Hugh Baker: I think that covers it for that one.
Daniel Wrenne: Okay. So number three.
Hugh Baker: I would be reactive instead of proactive. Meaning I wouldn’t look into the future when thinking about what I could afford for maybe some of these big purchases. Maybe I would just buy a home based on my mortgage approval, right? The bank doesn’t want to lose money.
So you know, they’re gonna give me a reasonable approval, right? But, maybe I’m young, I wanna grow the family. I should probably factor in costs associated with that, with kids. There’s childcare, there’s the school district you might wanna live in. There’s private tuition that comes into play.
Or on the student loan side, if you’re somebody with student loans, maybe I’m going for public service loan forgiveness, and I just file taxes jointly, and whenever I get my W2, I just do it. I don’t even look at filing separately if that would make sense, or if extending my taxes would make sense. Maybe I’m going for public service loan forgiveness, but didn’t calculate what my monthly payment’s gonna be once I’m actually an attending.
Like what is my payment going to be? I know it’s a couple hundred bucks now while I’m a resident or a fellow or something like that. It could be a couple thousand once it’s based on your attending salary. Knowing that before you get into a mortgage for the first time or some other sort of big fixed payment, that’s really important to know on the front end.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, all these are interconnected that, in case, you probably starting to notice, but. You gotta do all of them or not do all of them.
AD BREAK
Daniel Wrenne: Let’s take a quick break to talk about our firm, Wrenne Financial Planning.
The goal of our podcast is to empower you to make better financial decisions, but sometimes the best financial decision you can make is to work with someone who understands your financial goals and has the expertise to keep you on track to reach them. That’s where Wrenne Financial Planning comes in. We are a full-service financial planning firm that works with over 400 physicians and their families across the country.
We charge a transparent monthly flat fee for our services and offer virtual meetings you can take from anywhere. Best of all, you’ll get to work with a team that specializes in working with physician families. So whether you’re starting out and wondering how you’ll balance your student loan payments and saving for a home, or you are established physician trying to figure out how to pay for your kids’ college and how much you need to save to reach financial freedom, we can help.
I’ll put a link in the show notes to schedule a no-obligation meeting with one of our certified financial planners. Wrenne Financial Planning, LLC is a registered investment advisor. For more information about our firm, please visit wrennefinancial.com. That’s W-R-E-N-N-E financial.com.
AD BREAK END
Daniel Wrenne: I wonder why do you think people are reactive instead of proactive?
Hugh Baker: I think it’s human nature. I think it’s just the first thing that comes to mind. I think that you could probably get, oh geez, what’s that book called? Thinking Fast and Slow. We could get really deep and really nerdy and really boring quickly with that topic.
Yeah, maybe some of you find it interesting, but I think, I guess I just think it’s human nature and it’s easy and we’re not, there’s a thousand things going on in our life, I’m trying to get the kid out of bed. Eat your darn breakfast, brush your teeth, and get on the bus. And I gotta get to work and I gotta get home.
And then we gotta go to baseball practice, and then we gotta find dinner after baseball practice. Like I’m looking for the quick fix. I’m just trying to get things done. I don’t have a ton of time to go deep on every topic, so it really requires either setting aside some time. Do research, think about it.
Look down the road. Have those conversations you need to have. Think big picture, and a lot of us jolts don’t have that time to set aside unless you make the time to set for that. It’s really hard to find the time. You have to make the time to do that sort of thing, or you have to hire somebody.
Maybe I’m talking in my own book a little bit here, but I know I do that for other things in my life.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, I think both. You can do both. Yeah. I was thinking along the same lines, busyness is a big part of it and you gotta push it up the priority list in order for it to happen.
The other thing I was thinking about, this is something—we had at our small group for church. We talked about the Sabbath. And I mean the Sabbath has been around for forever and multiple different religions and I mean there’s a lot of good reasoning behind having a day of rest where you don’t have commitments, and there’s just like space and a lot of times that’s—so a lot of this stuff we’re bringing up today re requires like some proactive head space.
Especially this one, you gotta take a minute to stop doing all the craziness that everybody has and then be like, okay, what’s most important? Am I doing things to help move me towards what’s most important? And if not, what do I need to change? And in order to get to that place, I think you have to carve out the time of like space that’s not busy and chaotic.
’cause everybody’s busy and chaotic these days. Maybe they always were, I don’t know.
Hugh Baker: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, everybody’s busy. Especially the types of people that we work with. Somehow, the 36 patient-facing hours turn into 40, and then there’s all the charting, and that needs to be done somewhere.
Somehow you have to eat, but you get double-booked. How does that work? How do I have two patients at 9:00 AM? I’m not sure how that’s supposed to work, but that happens. My wife’s a primary care doc, so I know how these things work behind the scenes a little bit. So.
Daniel Wrenne: That’s just reactive. That just asks for being reactive. You almost have to be reactive when you have overscheduled days.
Hugh Baker: That’s right. Yeah. It’s tough.
Daniel Wrenne: You wanna move to four? It’s a good one.
Hugh Baker: Yeah. I would not have any conversations with my partner about what their vision is or what they value.
So maybe before we remodel our home, my wife might want to know that I was planning on being a stay-at-home trophy husband when we have kids. That might’ve been important to the finances.
Daniel Wrenne: Right. Yeah. It’s important to understand their opinions. Both sides always have opinions and different values and goals, and say so, and a lot of times they’re different.
That’s where it gets interesting. Sometimes we assume the other side has one view that’s dangerous always.
Hugh Baker: That can really be dangerous. This could really go a lot of different directions. Not just jobs and income, but it could go on types of things that you wanted to spend money on.
Like some people really value traveling, some people are homebodies, and you gotta figure out a compromise there. But that’s really important to know upfront. You might really wanna get a boat and that has ongoing costs. And it also takes a lot of time and maybe you wanna do some other things that involve the family and you can’t be out on the boat for six hours every weekend. Really, to make this work, you have to think about it as one family unit and make decisions based on that.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, you gotta tie that knot. That’s why they say when two become one, it’s one unit. And look at it like that. And I also, you could look at it like. It’s transparency, it’s communication, it’s being on the same page, but also transparency around your finances as well.
So a common goal or objective is to have, “I need a separate account.” And there’s reasons for that are legitimate, but the challenge is like maintaining transparency ’cause transparency is what builds trust. And when you hide stuff doesn’t. It’s the reverse.
You lose trust. So not only being on the same page with good conversations, open about values and what’s most important and where you want to go, but then also taking it to the next level of we’re an open book here, like we can see anything at any point in time. And it’s good transparency as opposed to like my money, your money kind of thing.
And inevitably one spouse usually is like the quarterback of the finances. That’s typically how it works. So it’s almost, it’s like it’s easy to just have one spouse just drive the ship and just do the thing, and the other spouse is probably not as interested.
And sometimes it takes a little extra work to loop them into, and I promise they’ll appreciate it and feel more involved, even though they’re not like the finance person.
Hugh Baker: Yeah. And sometimes, there can be some conflicts, like, “What? We spend this much money on groceries?” Or really, you spend too much. So when’s the last time you did the grocery shopping?
So how would you even know what things cost? Do you wanna have healthy food or not? Or there’s a less guilty side of this too, where you just didn’t have the conversations like. Maybe I didn’t know that my wife grew up going to Catholic school, and she really wants the kids to go to a Catholic school, and we just never talked about it.
And I’m like, “We pay so much in property taxes to live in the school district, blah, blah, blah.” You just never had the conversation, and that can—private school, as you probably know, Daniel can be a mortgage in itself. So again, really just important to have conversations and just know where you stand.
I think long drives. Like long car rides can be decent opportunities to just, it doesn’t have to get too deep. You can just start at surface level and see how deep it goes. Just kinda talk about what your visions are.
Daniel Wrenne: Or meetings with your financial planners. We have fun conversations.
We’ll be talking about how do you guys feel about funding your kids’ education? Just as an example. And it’s like one spouse will say, “It’s really important because I grew up and my family provided for my education, which allowed me the opportunity and put me in such a solid financial position to be able to finish without student loans.”
And then the other spouse chimes in, and they’re like, “I think it’s important for our children to pay for it themselves and to get out loans because that’s how I did it and I learned the work ethic and the hard work and had the discipline to pay them off, and it was a great experience and I appreciate the value of money.”
And then you’re like, “Okay.” I got two different point of views here.
Hugh Baker: And neither are wrong. It’s just we have to find a way to make them work together. Yep.
Daniel Wrenne: Yep.
Hugh Baker: All right, let’s move on.
Daniel Wrenne: Alright, so number five.
Hugh Baker: I would give myself no room for error. So I ran the numbers. I thought of everything I could think of. Yeah, and we had the conversations, right? We talked about the private school. All of those things and we can afford a home that’s $850,000.
Daniel Wrenne: $852,000.
Hugh Baker: Oh yeah, that’s better. Let’s get really precise here, and we’ll negotiate in some closing costs as well, and surprise. You had an unexpected kid.
You had a major home repair. Ask me about that one.
A major home repair or something like that. Not a planned renovation. “Oh, look, your pipe’s broke. $10,000.” How fun. It could even be something, I think this is a little bit more emotionally charged or difficult, but maybe you were going for public service loan forgiveness and you just absolutely hate it.
Like you, you graduated from residency, you’re like, Ah, geez, I only need to do another five or six years, or whatever it is. How my $300,000 loans are gone. I don’t like the job, but my friend’s working at the private practice across town, and maybe they treat them so much better. It’s so much easier for family life or something like that.
But now if I do that, I’m gonna have to pay back these $300,000 of loans, which I was gonna end up getting half that forgiven or something like that. So now what do we do? Do we take the kids outta private school? Do we downgrade our home, which, oh by the way, now the same home costs a hundred thousand dollars more.
So it’s really a downgrade. Now you’re really in some tough decisions that you probably weren’t prepared to make, or you didn’t really wanna make.
Daniel Wrenne: This is probably my favorite one. I like all these, but I think this is my favorite one partly because I’ve failed, I’ve messed it up a million times.
This is probably the one I have messed up the most, especially like early in on my career. ’cause I lean heavily towards perfectionism. This is the perfectionist challenge right here. And so like the area I would constantly mess it up on that comes to mind is budgeting or cash flow. So essentially what I would do over and over again is I would make the perfect budget that accounted for everything and it was to the dollar.
Then I would leave room for the perfect amount of savings, and then everything was gonna be perfect because I had the right amount of savings and I had the right amount of spending. But the problem I made over and over again was that I didn’t build in any margin, like I accounted for everything. And it’s impossible to account for a future budget.
There’s always like unplanned. And just the discipline of having to meet a budget to the penny is incredibly stressful in itself. And inevitably, you blow the budget almost always, which is discouraging. After you do it, you’re like, “That’s a fail again. That’s depressing.” And then after years and years of doing that, a lot of times you’re just like, “I’m never budgeting again. This is a disaster.”
And so it sets you back, even more. But all you gotta do is build in. Eventually, I learned that from somebody like older and wiser, but it’s like all you gotta do is put in a little margin or maybe a lot of margin. It depends on kinda your habits, but put in a little margin and assume it gets spent usually, or typically, and then that all of a sudden—so what happens for me now, I’ve always, I always do this now, is I build in that little bit of margin and the margin always gets spent almost always. And then I’m like, we’re right on budget. Perfect. It’s not perfect, but it feels like you’re having success as opposed to disappointment.
We wanna move on to the final. This is the final one, right?
Hugh Baker: Yeah. Let’s move on to the last one
Daniel Wrenne: And number six.
Hugh Baker: Yeah, so I would use money I didn’t technically earn yet, like a signing bonus that has some strings attached to it. So a lot of the people that we see end up getting a sign-on bonus.
Sometimes they’re pretty large. It could be $75,000, $100,000, and you have to stay for five years to keep it. Or you have to pay it back. Sometimes you get to keep—most of the time, you get to keep like a prorated portion depending on how long you’re there. But a lot of the people, let’s say you graduate from training, you get this sign-on bonus, you’re buying your first house, use it for the down payment, for the furniture.
Maybe your beater car that you’ve had since high school was broke. You got yourself a new car, you’ve used the money and, again, maybe a staff member leaves that was assigned to your practice at work, and they don’t replace ’em and they say do more with less.
Does that sound familiar to any of you? Maybe I’m making that up. But I know I’ve heard…
Daniel Wrenne: Heard that few times.
Hugh Baker: I’m not making it up. Yes. So there could be any reason the job isn’t working out. Maybe there’s even family reasons you wanna move. Maybe it’s not the job itself, but you find yourself locked in.
And again, if you haven’t built yourself in that margin for error or we could go back to all these other steps where you’ve been able to save your way out of that, or been proactive and set that money aside. I love the idea. With many people will do this. You get that signing bonus, great. We got an account.
We’ll call it your signing bonus account. Let’s set it aside for if that situation comes up, and now you don’t have that hanging over your head because that’s really what this is. Because if you see, honestly, for a lot of people, if you just see an extra $75,000—we’ll stick with that example—in another account.
That really doesn’t change your feelings about money as much, or if you’ve used that $75,000 to buy something, it doesn’t change your feelings that much. What changes is you don’t have something hanging over your head, or like you can’t do something. That’s really the difference. So being proactive about that, thinking about that, not spending that money, just setting it aside in case for any reason it’s not working out and you gotta pay it back. No big deal.
That’s really an important step. Do not spend that money that you have not technically earned yet.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, I think that’s the case in life in general. You don’t wanna spend money you hadn’t earned. It’s always a dicey situation ’cause you could end up having to pay it back sooner than you expected.
And if you can’t, then you’re locked.
Hugh Baker: That’s right. And that spills into not just your finances, but a lot of other areas in your life if you have that, if that’s you and your situation.
Daniel Wrenne: All right. That’s a good little list. Any other final parting thoughts, Hugh?
Hugh Baker: No, I think it’s really important to learn the things that are good: are good tips, are good rules to follow, steps to follow, but it’s just as important to know the things not to do.
I think a lot of us get to a point where. Maybe like we’ve done some research, we’ve listened. Yes, index funds sounds great. Max out your 401(k) sounds great, but really knowing the things not to do also is really important and good things to keep in mind as you’re reviewing your finances.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, I love it. All right. Thanks for coming on, Hugh. I appreciate it.
Hugh Baker: Thanks for having me.
No guests or clients appearing on the podcast received any form of compensation for their appearance and obtained no other benefit from us. It should not be assumed that every client has had the same experience.
