Why is the physician divorce rate lower among the families we work with, even though money is one of the top causes of marital conflict?
In this episode, Daniel Wrenne and Jen Quire dig into the surprising reasons behind our incredibly low client divorce rate—and what it reveals about the powerful connection between money, communication, values, and partnership.
Listen in as they share the common habits they see in couples who stay strong despite the pressures of medical life.
You’ll hear why financial planning is far more than spreadsheets and investment decisions; it’s a process that naturally strengthens marriages.
Daniel and Jen also discuss the red flags that often point to deeper relational issues, as well as practical steps any couple can take to get aligned, stay aligned, and use money as a tool to support their relationship rather than strain it.
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Full Episode Transcript:
Jen Quire: Personally, I’m a big proponent of joint accounts unless there is a very specific reason to have an individual account. I think that accountability and transparency and being on the same page with goals and where money goes and where it’s coming from—it’s really hard to do if it’s coming from individual places.
Welcome to Finance for Physicians, the show where we help physicians like you use money as a tool to live a great life. I’m your host, Daniel Wrenne, and I’ve spent the last decade advising physicians on their personal finances with the mission to help them understand that taking control of their finances now means creating a future where they can practice medicine where, when, and how long they want to.
Daniel Wrenne: Hey, Jen, how’s it going?
Jen Quire: Good, how are you?
Daniel Wrenne: Good. I’m just enjoying the snow in Lexington, Kentucky. Jen is in Colorado, where it’s supposed to be snowing already. And is it not snowing there yet?
Jen Quire: It’s 70 today.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. So it’s 70 there and it’s 27 and snowy in Lexington, Kentucky.
Jen Quire: Yep. My sister’s in Columbus, Ohio, and she sent me a picture of their backyard today, and it’s totally snow-covered, and I was like, you officially got snow before I did in Boulder.
Daniel Wrenne: Yep. But anyways, we’re gonna be talking about a fun topic. I don’t know—not so fun, maybe. I dunno if it’s a fun topic.
Jen Quire: Interesting topic.
Daniel Wrenne: An interesting topic. We’ve always been curious. I know we’ve talked about it a lot. Jen and I have definitely talked about this a lot over the years.
It’s been an interesting observation from the families we work with. And what’s been interesting is how few of them get divorced. In fact, it’s so little that it’s like a handful at max. And we work with a lot of families, so it’s extremely low rate of divorce. Much, much, much lower than the normal rates you would see in the general population.
And so that’s always been an interesting topic. We’re gonna try to talk through why we think that’s occurring. Some of this is opinions and it’s impossible to say.
Jen Quire: Probably mostly opinion, yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: Mostly opinions. We’ll say mostly opinions, somewhat informed, mostly opinions.
But I think there is definitely some takeaways that would apply, that you can learn from and seeing that. So the first takeaway I think of is maybe there’s something to if you have your finances in order, like that’s the obvious one. It’s if you have your finances in order, which our clients typically are gonna have their finances in order, you’re less likely to get divorced.
It might just be as simple as that. Now, I don’t think it is. I think there’s more to it.
Jen Quire: Yeah, I think it’s the entire process that goes into getting your finances in order, I think lends itself to communication and being on the same page and transparency.
Daniel Wrenne: Right.
Jen Quire: All things are good for a marriage.
Daniel Wrenne: And so if you’re not working with us, just for context, our approach is a little bit more involved in that it’s a thorough process that gets into what’s most important to you? Let’s understand your goals and values and help you craft a plan.
We do help with investments and that kind of thing, but it’s much more about like the plan and the planning and the execution. And so I think if you were a financial planner that just strictly looked at investments, it might be a little different.
Jen Quire: Sure.
Daniel Wrenne: But since we’re like very involved in the wide scope of families finances, I think it’s especially true for us is that we get to get in there. So when I’m working with somebody for the first time, I’m trying to understand like, how do you guys communicate? Are we all on the same page? And even when I think when we’re talking with potential clients, we’re trying to figure out, are they on the same page about life?
Jen Quire: And are they both present? I think that’s a big tell too, is one of our goals is to get both spouses involved. ‘Cause I think there’s a lot to be said for doing this together and being in this journey together and taking everyone’s opinion and views and beliefs into account and empowering people who might not be as familiar with finances.
So I think that part of it is important too.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. So maybe we could look at some examples of how not to do it first. So we were saying like it’s about having a good personal finance hygiene or whatever you wanna call it. Like being on the same page with your money would lend itself to a lower divorce rate.
But I think you could also look at it like not being that away would lend itself to a higher divorce rate. And I think the money thing comes out as I think they always say that’s like a top divorce cause is money.
Jen Quire: I think it’s pretty much always number one.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Do you think it’s the money—it seems like the money is more of the end result of underlying problems.
Jen Quire: Probably because I’m sure a multitude of things if, yeah. If we’re already to the point that we’re fighting over money, it’s probably not coming from a place of understanding or communication or trying to fix it. But if we can be proactive with that and if we can communicate about it before it becomes a problem and before we’re blaming, I think there’s a better chance of that being a successful conversation.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. So going back to what I was saying, like some examples of what I think ideally you’re not doing. So one of them I think of like some people—a potential client I once talked to that shared with me. I’m not gonna give specifics ’cause I mean I’m sure nobody knows this person, but to keep things anonymous.
But anyway, they shared with me how they had a substantial debt that they’d taken out. And then in the conversation, I talked about how both spouses needed to be involved, and then at the end, they said there’s also something I needed to mention, like she doesn’t know about the debt.
Jen Quire: Oh.
Daniel Wrenne: And that was like a problem. Like he did not want to tell her about the debt, and he had like his reasons for it. But I was like, we can’t really work with that.
Jen Quire: Yeah. We can’t hide things. We gotta be on the same page. We have to be transparent. We have to be really starting from a place of openness with finances.
Daniel Wrenne: So they might, hopefully they figured that out, but they might’ve gotten divorced and I bet that they would’ve said potentially that money was the number.
But let’s say she found out about the debt and she’s like, “You lied to me about the debt. I’m done.”
Jen Quire: Yeah. So is it money, is it communication? Is it Honesty? Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: T might have said money was the reason, but I think it was, that’s like a honesty thing more than—being on the same page thing, I think.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne:. So that’s another example. What are some other examples of bad habits or bad examples of what not to do?
Jen Quire: Bad example? Blame. I think blame when we’re talking about finances. Pointing fingers is never gonna get us where we wanna go.
Daniel Wrenne: My favorite example, I’ve screwed up on a bunch.
I’ve gotten better at it a little bit, but I used to open the credit card statement. And I’d be like, “Allison, what’s this thing, Allison? What’s up? What’s this charge?”
Jen Quire: I’m guilty of that as well.
Daniel Wrenne: I might say, like, maybe I said, why did you buy that? Or, I don’t know. I probably got even more aggressive. And she heard that as “you’re the problem.”
Jen Quire: “You were wrong.” Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: That’s never good.
Jen Quire: Nope. Nope. That’s not a good place to start a conversation. Yeah, so I think if you can start those sorts of conversations, which are hard anyway from a place of understanding, trying to get on the same page then it becomes much less about you and more about us.
Daniel Wrenne: But the problem with that approach, like the open the credit card and like kind of pointing finger is that she gets mad. I get mad. I’m like, that wasn’t effective. Not gonna do that next time. That’s usually the outcome. So then that spirals to like, “I’m just gonna do the finances.”
Jen Quire: “I’ll just handle it.”
Daniel Wrenne: So she’s stayed at home with our kids. So the tendency when that circumstance is like to just have the person, breadwinner, manage the finances and this stay-at-home spouse to just do the home stuff. And that’s a bad path because you’re not communicating any, but that’s because it’s painful to communicate.
‘Cause you start a fight every time you bring it up.
Jen Quire: Yep.
Daniel Wrenne: But it’s what that would spiral into a train wreck.
Jen Quire: Yeah, and I think it would for anyone. I’m sure that’s not as specific to your household situation. I’ve seen that exact thing happen a million times.
Daniel Wrenne: Yes. What are other examples of what not to do to your spouse?
Jen Quire: What not to do? Hide things.
Daniel Wrenne: Hiding, yes.
Jen Quire: And this is not gonna be a ‘everyone has to do this,’ but I personally am a big proponent of joint accounts, unless there is a very specific reason to have an individual account. I think that accountability and transparency and being on the same page with goals and where money goes and where it’s coming from. It’s really hard to do if it’s coming from individual places.
Daniel Wrenne: Right. So like our money instead of—
Jen Quire: It’s our money.
Who 2: —my money.
Daniel Wrenne: Well, I agree for sure. But why would that be a problem to have? Separate finances, I think that in itself is not a big deal.
Like if your spouse has a checking account and you have a checking account, that in itself is not that big of a deal, but.
Jen Quire: It’s not that big of a deal if there’s no giant problems. But how do you know?
Daniel Wrenne: So when that conversation, I’ve had that conversation a bunch of times with people, typically the conversation comes up like, “I wanna have a separate account so that I can buy them something like a gift and then them not know about it.”
That’s like the virtue signaling way to bring it up. They’re like, “I’m a great person. I’m gonna have it separate so I can buy them a gift, so they don’t see it.” But in reality, they’re also probably thinking so that they don’t see that I have an excessive sports betting problem or something.
Jen Quire: Yeah. There’s always something in and just be on the same page about it. If you want to spend on sports betting, if you wanna buy a new bag, like who cares? Just be on the same page about it. You don’t have to do it through individual accounts.
And I think that’s where the communication part of it comes in. And you might even intentionally decide, “We get $500 a month to do whatever we want with, and we’re not accountable to each other for whatever that $500 a month is.” But it’s the process of going through, making sure the bulk of what we’re doing is on the same page and there’s intention behind it and it’s transparent.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, I’ve been in some super awkward conversations with couples that have separate finances. It almost always becomes awkward. It’s difficult to not make it awkward because it’s like my money—It’s also very selfish. People are selfish. It is what it is. But it’s a particularly selfish way to view things.
Especially if you are the higher earning spouse. That’s an additional problem. It’s do you like compensate for that? Is it like the fact that you’re the higher earning spouse, does that mean you get to spend more or is there some sort of like equalizer? I don’t even know how you do that. And but then how do you value the household duties that don’t compensate? And it’s impossible to.
Jen Quire: Yeah. Yeah. It’s really challenging to plan effectively and transparently when things are separate. You make 80% of our household income, are you funding 80% of our retirement? Like how do you—it’s just really hard. It’s really hard.
Daniel Wrenne: And usually that separate finances thing tends to translate to separate plans.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: When I used to have lots of meetings with people—potential clients. I would ask ’em about that. I’m like, “Do you view it as one unit, like a household unit? Is it like tie the knot?” I guess “Do you have one plan together or do you like have separate plans and separate goals?”
And a lot of times when people have separate finances, especially when they’re truly separate, and I don’t just mean separate accounts, like some people have separate accounts that intend to have combined finances.
Like they have your money and my money separate. They tend to have also separate goals and separate plans. And it’s very challenging. But I’m curious, do you think you make that work? Is that an unworkable…?
Jen Quire: I’m not gonna say it’s unworkable. There’s just a disconnect somewhere along the—there’s gotta be an underlying reason that we don’t wanna have these accounts together, and that’s where it becomes uncomfortable from the planner’s perspective is, why? Like, why don’t you wanna have these accounts to get—are you hiding something or is it did you have a bad experience in your past that makes you feel protective over accounts or? But those conversations are not always fun and people aren’t always super honest about the why. And instead of giving us the real why, they’ll say, “I wanna be able to buy a gift.”
AD BREAK
Daniel Wrenne: Let’s take a quick break to talk about our firm, Wrenne Financial Planning.
The goal of our podcast is to empower you to make better financial decisions, but sometimes the best financial decision you can make is to work with someone who understands your financial goals and has the expertise to keep you on track to reach them. That’s where Wrenne Financial Planning comes in. We are a full-service financial planning firm that works with over 400 physicians and their families across the country.
We charge a transparent monthly flat fee for our services and offer virtual meetings you can take from anywhere. Best of all, you’ll get to work with a team that specializes in working with physician families. So whether you’re starting out and wondering how you’ll balance your student loan payments and saving for a home, or you are established physician trying to figure out how to pay for your kids’ college and how much you need to save to reach financial freedom, we can help.
I’ll put a link in the show notes to schedule a no-obligation meeting with one of our certified financial planners. Wrenne Financial Planning, LLC is a registered investment advisor. For more information about our firm, please visit wrennefinancial.com. That’s W-R-E-N-N-E financial.com.
AD BREAK END
Daniel Wrenne: So when you have ’em separate, even if there’s not something fishy going on, it like tends to—the person that with the other account is like suspicious. Lack of transparency breeds mistrust. It’s like you’re gonna be like asking questions just ’cause of the fact that you can’t see it and you’re like, “I bet they’re trying to do something shady over there.”
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: And then it also increases the chances probably that you are, ’cause there’s less accountability too on top of that.
Jen Quire: And it makes it less us and more “you versus me.” I’m saving my money. You’re spending all yours. That’s not healthy either. And it’s challenging to plan for joint goals with individual habits and processes, and it’s really hard to get on the same page.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. So it’s difficult to make it work, in your opinion, do you think you can make it work? I think you can make it work in rare circumstances. Especially for second marriages or something, or late stage marriages.
Jen Quire: Later in life marriages are definitely harder ’cause people are they’re in their habits and it is a little bit more mine versus yours ’cause you know they—
Daniel Wrenne: —have different families.
Jen Quire: Yeah. And so in that case, sure.
Daniel Wrenne: But the way I look at that is that’s two households. It’s a yours, mine, and ours, typically in the later marriage, like if you have kids from a prior marriage or something like that’s really just, it’s like bringing two households together.
When I talk about it like the traditional or—not the traditional—but the early life example typically is like you are getting married to have your own household. And that’s a different situation than like my spouse passed away, or I was divorced and now I’m getting remarried and meshing, trying, partnering up with another household in some ways.
So I would say that’s the more common scenario where separate finances work out. Or need, maybe even need to be separate. It still makes it tough because you’re still gonna ask the questions like why wouldn’t they keep it completely open? “Are they hiding something from me?”
Jen Quire: Yeah. Yeah. Just like you said. Lack of transparency can breed mistrust.
Daniel Wrenne: Yes. Yes. Any other big red flags to think about in terms of finances and communication?
Jen Quire: We touched on the big ones.
Daniel Wrenne: I think not talking about. Let’s say you have complete transparency combined finances.
I think you can still not be on the same page in regular communication. Just as a result typically of one spouse taking the lead and not—I think this is common with DIY-ers is the—I’m talking about with personal finances. So the DIY spouse typically takes the lead on their finances probably ’cause they enjoy it more, and then they do it.
And then the non DIY spouse is, “I’m not that interested in it.” And they just have no idea what’s going on with the finances.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: The finance are, maybe they’re all combined in everything, but I think in an I ideal world, there’s some amount of like communication in particular around the goals and values.
So that’s where my mind was going is going back to like divorce. I think one of the—I don’t think we’ve hit on this yet, but I think one of the biggest reasons people end up getting divorced is they have a values conflict. Like an irreconcilable values conflict.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: Like the one I’ve had several friends get divorced on this topic.
They’re like, “I wanted to have kids.” “I didn’t.” It’s like, why didn’t you guys talk about that before you got married?
Jen Quire: Yeah, that’s a big one. We should talk about the 30,000 foot view of…
Daniel Wrenne: Kind of a big deal, but people don’t talk about it, so anyway, with your finances, you should also be talking about like same sort of thing like with your values.
A lot of times, financial conversations bring up your values because the same question: do I want to have kids or do I not? You have to incorporate that into the finances. Ideally, your finances reflect your values, so if you’re not on the same page about those, that’s gonna cause problems.
You kinda have to talk through those things, ideally sooner than later.
Jen Quire: And like you were saying if one person’s doing it, then I think it keeps both spouses on the thousand foot view ’cause the things that you can talk about together are, you spend too much money at Starbucks when they are not clued into the context of “this is why we’re trying to save where we’re saving for this and these are the things we talked about are important to us.”
If they don’t have the context for the 30,000 foot view, it’s gonna be really hard to make the thousand foot view work or click or buy into. And if they’re not involved in that process, then they’re just gonna lack that context.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. I’ve seen big time marital attention happen when one spouse believes that they should provide as much for their kids’ needs and wants, but once more. Like one spouses believes that they should give their kids all that they can or are able to financially and help fulfill all their wants so that they can live a good life, even at a young age.
Whereas the other spouse is like, we need to minimize that so that they can learn to be self-sufficient. Like they need to be able to provide for their own wants and we don’t need to give them everything they want.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: That’s a huge difference in opinions and that causes tons of financial tension because the one spouse that believes in, given their kids their wants, like for example, kid wants to play—my kids are in travel soccer, so we’ll use that—the kid wants to play travel soccer and wants to get lessons and do another travel soccer league and it’s like the spouse that’s on board with the kids once they’re going to be all on board with that. Because it’s very important for them to provide for all their kids once to give them the best shot at a po, a solid future.
There’s usually good intentions behind all these things. And then the other spouse is “Well, really for me, family time is far more important than our kids getting to do the things that they want to do with their time. Like our family time is much more important than that.” That potentially can break a relationship if you can’t reconcile it.
So ideally that comes up ahead of time, or you talk through it.
Jen Quire: Well, that’s what we try to get at when we take people through our values exercise, ’cause I think it’s important to recognize that in that scenario, neither one is wrong. Like neither of those people are wrong. It’s about understanding each other’s perspective and finding a middle ground that works for both of you.
It’s not about winning or being right, it’s going in with the mindset of, “I wanna understand what money means to you, and I want you to understand what money means to me, so we can find something that works for those of us.”
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. So I think at the end of the day, it’s not really the numbers. I think sometimes people see like money is the number one reason for divorce. They think it’s like lack of money maybe, or like literally the dollars.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: Like it’s scientific almost. But in reality, I think it’s deeper than that. Like net worth is not a good indicator. Profession is not a good indicator. No.
Jen Quire: Would you say that if you looked at your clients who are on the higher end of our income versus the lower end of our income that there’s a happiness difference?
Daniel Wrenne: No. That’s not a good indicator. Yeah. It’s not a good indicator of divorce. It’s not a good indicator of what I would consider marital satisfaction.
I’m sure that there’s a point where low income causes stress that’s not gonna happen with high income, but like it’s not nearly as—like it’s probably a hundred thousand income or it’s a low number where people are generally pretty happy. So I don’t think the money is as much the issue.
It’s more the result. It’s like the warning sign of, it’s like the ending red flag, there’s underlying issues that are deeper that cause that.
Jen Quire: Yeah. It’s the communication around it.
Daniel Wrenne: And money is one of those things. It’s like they say time and money you look at your time and your money and you can really tell what’s most important to you.
And so both of those things, like you might say, time and money are good measures of things. Money’s gonna cause divorce, time can cause divorce. Not being present with your spouse can cause divorce. But really it’s are you on the same page? Are you connected? Are you holding each other accountable?
Do you have values alignment? And I think we get to see a good—what’s interesting about financial planning, really good financial planning requires that kind of stuff.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: You have to have like good clarity on values and alignment and agreement and compromise and transparency and communication and all those things in order to do it. Like it’s built into the process.
Jen Quire: For sure. And it’s like you said, those are big things that you wanna talk about maybe beforehand. Do you want kids? That would be a good thing to be on the same page about beforehand. But even if not, the sooner you can get on the same page about those things or at least understand each other and find a middle ground. ‘Cause it’s very rare that people are in 100% alignment with everything.
You used the word compromise, which I think is a really important word to use with that big picture planning. But.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, it’s just like I have to intentionally share our finances with my wife ’cause she’s not as interested in it.
But she has important things that she values that 100% tie in the finances.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. We need to be able to work through that. And then they may be things that are not on my priority list. There’s definitely things that are like, she wanted to buy like a couch or something and some piece of furniture.
And I’m like, “I have zero interest in that. That’s not anywhere on my priority list.” But that’s a compromise. Or whatever. She’s, she has her priorities, I have my priorities and you gotta compromise on some and make tweaks. And I think that’s what I observe in our clients that are strong.
Like they can have testing conversations, which were sometimes precedent.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: Where it’s okay, you’re over here and you’re over here. Where we go from here?
Jen Quire: Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: Like they’re able to work through that and come up with.
Jen Quire: That’s where financial planning I think becomes so important though. Like when you can be that objective third party and let them each speak their piece and try to find a middle ground for that. ’cause those conversations are painful. So most people aren’t just gonna be like, “Oh. We’re back from soccer practice and I’ve made dinner. Let’s talk about some horrible financial topics that I know is gonna cause a fight, or we don’t see eye to eye on.”
But if you can have someone help facilitate that conversation and try to find a middle ground, I think that’ll be a much more productive use of everyone’s time. And probably a more helpful outcome without fighting.
Daniel Wrenne: Yes, bear fighting is what I would say.
Jen Quire: Just communicating. Don’t fight. Just communicate.
Daniel Wrenne: So if you don’t have a financial planner, maybe think about hiring one. Or if you are doing it yourself, I would say especially if you’re the person, the quarterback, make an effort to involve your spouse more. I think that’s always a good step. In either case, I guess there’s always gonna be one spouse typically that takes the lead on finances.
And so I think it’s on them probably more so to make an extra effort to try to pull in the other spouse.
Jen Quire: Yeah. And one thing that I always like to encourage people to have to promote that and when do we talk about is literally having a, “when do we talk about it amount?” Like we can spend however much, but if you’re gonna spend something that’s $500 or more, that’s our “we’re gonna talk about it limit.”
And that’s, for some people, that’s a hundred dollars. For some people, that’s a thousand dollars, whatever it is. But I think that’s a good checkpoint of, “Hey, let’s make sure we’re just being in communication about some larger purchases and what’s on your radar and what’s on my radar and keeping everyone involved.”
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. Yeah, just the decisions in general. Because there’s nothing more frustrating than having a decision made that you really had a strong opinion on that someone else made for you.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: And they’re like, yeah, I don’t care about their opinions.
Jen Quire: They don’t care. They don’t wanna be in the meetings. They don’t care. They care. Maybe they’re just busy with other things.
Daniel Wrenne: Yes. Any other parting thoughts? Positive takeaways of good things to lean towards or…?
Jen Quire: So maybe the issue is not necessarily finances, maybe it’s just communication.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah, I think.
Jen Quire: When it boils down to it.
Daniel Wrenne: I think there’s something to the tie the knot and when two becomes one, I think that’s like a little bit aspirational, but like something to work towards.
At least that’s how I like to think of it. You know the old couples you’ve probably been around, there’s not that many of them, but like a really old married couple that has been married for 60 years or something. Like my wife’s grandparents when they were both alive, were a good example, but they were basically like one unit pretty, they were a hundred percent one unit.
They were just like, they knew what the other one was thinking pretty much. One time her granddad was like, he was quiet for a long time and we’re like, “How come y’all are not talking?” And he’s like, “We’ve said everything there is to say, I know what she’s thinking. We’re just enjoying our silence.”
Jen Quire: Yep. We are as on the same page as we could possibly ever.
Daniel Wrenne: We are 100%.
Jen Quire: We live on the same page.
Daniel Wrenne: Yeah. So I think that would be the ultimate goal is if you can work towards one unit. I think that’s a good goal to have. But it takes a little work.
Jen Quire: It does. It does. It’s easier with a third party too.
Daniel Wrenne: Easier with a—
Jen Quire: Whether that’s a financial planner, a therapist, whatever it is. Some sort of third party to help facilitate.
Daniel Wrenne: Right. Yes. Especially if you’re having trouble, everybody’s got challenges. Therapists, financial planners, those kinds of, maybe a financial therapist.
Jen Quire: Maybe.
Daniel Wrenne: That’s a thing. But all right, Jen. It’s been good talking through this.
Jen Quire: Yeah.
Daniel Wrenne: We’ll look forward to next time.
No guests or clients appearing on the podcast received any form of compensation for their appearance and obtained no other benefit from us. It should not be assumed that every client has had the same experience.
